Are illegal immigrants righteous or wicked? Are they being removed from their land, or removing themselves from their land?
All the current news about the people leaving their homelands to seek refuge from war and poverty brings up, a least to me, a question of whether they are righteous or wicked for leaving their lands.
Whoa!
Is my question reveal me to be a heartless, unsympathetic, or lacking in empathy for the plight of the millions of people who decided they must leave their homelands or die? How can they possibly be wicked for the sake of themselves or their families safety?
An ancient proverb brings up the fact that people being removed from their land was recorded 3000 years ago. The question of why they leave, whether it is righteous or wicked, is the subject of this post.
King Solomon
The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. (Proverb 10:30)
The righteous shall never be removed,…. They may be removed from place to place in this world, through the persecutions of their enemies, or through one providence or another, as they often are; they may be removed from a state of outward prosperity to a state of adversity, as Job was; they may be removed from spiritual and comfortable frames of soul to carnal or uncomfortable ones; for good frames are very precarious and uncertain things; and they will be removed out of this world into another; here they have no continuing city: but they shall never be removed from the love of God, nothing can separate them from that; they are set as a seal on his heart, and are engraven on the palms of his hands, and there is no removing them from thence; they may be waiver about their interest in the love of God; they may be without the manifestations and discoveries of it to their souls; they may be under the hidings of God’s face; they may be at a distance from his house and ordinances, or may not enjoy the presence of God in them for a time; yet not separated from his affections; they shall never be removed out of the hands of Christ, into which they are put for security, and out of which none can pluck them, men or devils; how should they, since they are in those hands that made the heavens and the earth, support all in being, and hold the reins of government? Was it possible they could be removed from hence, it would impeach the wisdom of God, who has put them there; argue weakness in Christ, and suppose danger to them. Nor can they be removed out of the family of God; sons of God abide in his house for ever; they are no more foreigners and strangers; once children, no more servants; they may be corrected and chastised, yet be children; they may judge themselves unworthy of the relation, and be ready to conclude that their spots are not the spots of God’s children, and fear they are none of them, and yet the relation continues: nor will they ever be removed from their state of justification, by which they are denominated righteous, into a state of condemnation; for full satisfaction is given to law and justice for them; their justification is complete, it is from all sin; the righteousness by which they are justified is everlasting, and even their faith which receives it shall never fail; to which may be added, that they are secured from wrath to come, and entitled to eternal life. In a word, they are on the sure foundation of electing grace; they are in the immovable covenant of grace; they are on the Rock of ages, Christ Jesus; all the divine Persons and perfections are on their side; they are kept by the power of God, through faith, unto salvation; see Psalm 55:22;
but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth; but a very little while, as Gersom observes; and the time of their abode on earth is so short, as scarce to be called an inhabitation of it. Moreover, they shall not inhabit the earth the righteous will, even the new earth, which none but righteous persons shall inhabit, 2 Peter 3:13; see Psalm 37:9. (Source HERE)
What’s My Point?
The phrase, “but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth: but for a little while,” makes me wonder how will the wicked ever be removed if the righteous take flight and by doing so, never remove the wicked from the land they flee from?
The USA now legally accepts more than a million immigrants who legally apply for citizenship every year. More than any nation in the world over time.
Are desperate illegal immigrants righteous or wicked by taking advantage of the USA, knowing that they will be in the least fed and clothed for a time once they cross the borders?
There is another ancient proverb about people who overstay the welcome of someone who helps them in bad times. This is obviously the problem taking place all over the world.
Seldom set foot in your neighbor’s house– too much of you, and they will hate you. (Proverb 25:17)
What is the Solution?
Somewhere there is a solution on what to do about people being persecuted in the land they were born.
Somewhere there is a solution how to solve the world problems. Engaging in wars only serves to cause destruction to both people and their lands.
Whatever the solution is, the need for love and wisdom is part of the solution.
It has been over 3000 years since King Solomon recorded his proverbial wisdom and Ecclesiastes for us to make use of to solve the folly of mankind.
It has been over 2000 years since Jesus Christ was crucified for giving us guidance to love our neighbors.
The only solution I can provide is to bring up the question when are we all going to wise up to understand the real problem in the world is our continuing folly, generation after generation.
Our vanity to believe we are capable of coming up with a solution that is better than what has already been provided by King Solomon and Jesus Christ.
You Decide
Are illegal immigrants righteous of wicked?
Are we USA citizens righteous or wicked for not wanting to accept, feed, and cloth, all the millions of persecuted people in the world who are removing themselves for their land for righteous or wicked reasons?
Do you have a better solution than the two I just mentioned?
Do you believe ending wars in the world might be a wise solution?
Do you believe God wants us to suffer the consequences of wars we fools keep engaging in just about every generation ever born on Earth?
Is the caption on the above image make you wonder about the cause of all the fleeing going on in the news around the world?
Regards and good will blogging.
Rudy u Martinka 
if the immigrants have money, they are called visitors, they are not going to cost us, if they come with empty pockets, they are illegal, money and power changes everything, being vulnerable is not a comforting feeling, knowing so many will gladly exploit you, amen
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You are right about that. King Solomon wrote a proverb 3000 years ago that adds credit to your statement.
Wealth attracts many friends, but even the closest friend of the poor person deserts them. (Proverb 19:4)
Nothing new under the sun for certain on how a person with wealth treatment differs from a poor man.
What is the solution is somewhere in writings of the two men I identified in the post along with a lot more problems we humans somehow can’t seem to remedy because of vanity hangups.
Regards and good will blogging.
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thanks, I follow wisdom as much as its’ possible, how customs created become laws that enslave us, amen
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Very interesting post, thought-provoking and relevant.
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If the US is a Christian nation then they should come here to Christ.
If this is not a Christian nation then they should be kept out.
What do you think, is Christ here to receive them?
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Q — Are illegal immigrants righteous of wicked?
A — Only God is good.
Q — Are we USA citizens righteous or wicked for not wanting to accept, feed, and cloth, all the millions of persecuted people in the world who are removing themselves for their land for righteous or wicked reasons?
A — The question is misleading since it is somewhat dishonest. The US does accept and clothe people but not all. We are a nation of laws so there is no wickedness in the eyes of man. When it comes to God we are disobedient and faithless since we do not take them in for fear of not having enough resources.
16 Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”
17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Q — Do you have a better solution than the two I just mentioned?
A — Yes. Trust and Obey God. Do what Jesus would do and stop being so scared.
Q — Do you believe ending wars in the world might be a wise solution?
A — Yes. It’s better economically.
Q — Do you believe God wants us to suffer the consequences of wars we fools keep engaging in just about every generation ever born on Earth?
A — Jeremiah 29:11: For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Q — Is the caption on the above image make you wonder about the cause of all the fleeing going on in the news around the world?
A — lol no! women and children fleeing poverty, rape, and starvation don’t line up with that image. We do order more t-shirts bravely from those countries where children make them in factories for WalMart so you might say we are something but I’m not sure what.
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Do you believe that the USA government should force people to clothe and feed everyone who comes into the USA?
Do you believe that charity organizations that believe as you do, will be able to feed clothe and house everyone who comes into the USA.
Do you believe that when people are not fed, clothed and housed, the hungry will become desperate, and he result will be anarchy?
Do you know that it costs far less to feed clothe and house people in their own country than in the USA?
Do you believe all people and nations will thrive better if they live in areas that have law and order?
Are you aware that under Obama, that 50 million Americans were on food stamps and the number was growing.
Are you aware that the USA presently is funding the dollars to feed cloth and house both Americans in poverty and illegal immigrants on borrowed dollars, where in the near future, a taxes collected will be used to pay the interest on the debt?
Perhaps you believe that when all of the above occurs, the world and the USA will be a better place.
I do not know the answers to any of these questions.
You are right though, Trust in God, and hope everyone else does too. But unfortunately, that is not what is the reality in the USA and the world.
Thanks for your thoughtful replies,
Regards and good will blogging..
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Q — Do you believe that the USA government should force people to clothe and feed everyone who comes into the USA?
A — I don’t think any government on Earth should force people to clothe. If America is a Christian nation they should feed those in need, if not they should only feed those who have money.
Q — Do you believe that charity organizations that believe as you do, will be able to feed clothe and house everyone who comes into the USA.
A — I don’t know what resources charity organizations have. I’m also not aware of any charity organization that believes in Christ as I do so I’m not sure what you are referring to.
Q — Do you believe that when people are not fed, clothed and housed, the hungry will become desperate, and he result will be anarchy?
A — I’m not sure I understand this question but I think you are saying if a mass of people are naked, starving and homeless will it bring about a collapse of the government in a localized area. No, those people would be to weak to resist the local police force or let alone the combined might of the most powerful military ever seen by man. Go USA!
Q — Do you know that it costs far less to feed clothe and house people in their own country than in the USA?
A — I do know that in some yes, in all no. For some cheaper in other countries from other countries rather than the US.
Q — Do you believe all people and nations will thrive better if they live in areas that have law and order?
B — No, I don’t believe that North Korea having law and order makes the world a safer place. I do believe if nations followed Christ they would thrive better.
Q — Are you aware that under Obama, that 50 million Americans were on food stamps and the number was growing.
A — Yes and No. I did not know the exact number but I did know there were people using food stamps in America.
Q — Are you aware that the USA presently is funding the dollars to feed cloth and house both Americans in poverty and illegal immigrants on borrowed dollars, where in the near future, a taxes collected will be used to pay the interest on the debt?
A — Yes, all US currency is under a Fiat system and therefore is credit based and incurs interest no matter what it is used for.
You stated — “Perhaps you believe that when all of the above occurs, the world and the USA will be a better place.”
My response — No. To make the world a better place all you have to do is what Christ would do.
Either you believe God and follow Christ by doing what he would do or you deny Christ and do what you feel is best. I didn’t make these rules.
If you don’t think this is a Christian nation then just say so and don’t feed any children who cross the border, turn them away and live your life in peace. I’m not the one judging you so I think you should do what you want and have fun doing it.
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@Lander7
I think our host is on the track. Most poverty stems from war and exploitation of some sort. However, we don’t have the power to police the world. For the most part, other nations have to solve their own problems. We can help, but the best we can do is set a good example.
We have borders. To protect our country, we have a responsibility to enforce them. Protecting our country includes protecting the integrity of our culture by controlling who comes here. Helping the people in other countries does not required us to open our borders to everyone who wants to come here. If we did that, it would not be long before our government became even more unmanageable than it is. Yet that appears to be what you are arguing for, and it is silly. What good does it do anyone if we destroy our own country by refusing to protect it?
As I have observed on my own blog, charity is not a function of government. When government gets into the business of redistributing the wealth, instead of protecting our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; our leaders start deciding what rights they want to give us. Unfortunately, we have allowed our leaders to seize the power to redistribute our wealth, a power not given to them by the Constitution. That is probably one reason why many of them want these illegal immigrants to stay in the USA. They see votes that they can cheaply buy with other people’s money.
So what should we do? America sends charitable organizations to help people in other countries. Send your favorite among those charities a check every year.
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I frankly am not certain Lander really means what he says that government should no use taxpayers money for charitable reasons. For example, why are taxpayers obligated to pay to feed, clothe, and house illegal immigrants.
We need realistic solutions to end millions of people crossing our borders. Feed them and they will come is reality. The government is feeding everyone using borrowed money.
I do not see any choices of what I agree the government should pay for when it comes time to pay my taxes.
Lander7 is making empty suit statements to my questions which means there is no substance in his statements, same a Democrats offer no longer solutions.
Christians should be truthful and make suggestions how to solve the 35 year old problem.
Regards and good will blogging.
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@scatterwisdom
You don’t suppose Lander7 is practicing running for political office?
😉
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lol, “Lander7 is practicing running for political office”, I can’t imagine they would be happy with me there. I would make so many changes to the government it wouldn’t be funny. Not to mention I would quote scripture anytime It pleased me to do so.
Me a politician LOL!!!!
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Tom, Lander7
Lander has a point, we should do as Jesus did. Problem is we cannot perform miracles with loaves and fishes as Jesus did.
The result will be if we continue to borrow to keep feeding everyone who has no fish to feed themselves, there Is no miracle way other to pay than to sell your fish nets (land, businesses) to people who may not be as good and kind Christian followers and believers.
The less fish nets you have results in less fish you are going to catch to eat or give away over time.
Like I said, the difference is since we cannot perform miracles, we have to protect our fish from being eaten up or we will no longer be able to feed everyone. We have to know when to say enough is enough as King Solomon warned.
Proverbs 30:15 The leech has two daughters: Give and Give. There …
biblehub.com/proverbs/30-15.htm
New International Version “The leech has two daughters. ‘Give! Give!’ they cry. “There are three things that are never satisfied, four that never say, ‘Enough!’:
The Words of Agur
…14there is a generation whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are knives, devouring the oppressed from the earth, and the needy from among men. 15The leech has two daughters: Give and Give.There are three things that are neversatisfied, four that never say, “Enough!”:16Sheol, the barren womb, land that is never satisfied with water, and fire that never says, “Enough!”…
In My Opinion
That generation appears to be now in the world.
The answer in my opinion is Christians have been given two blessings instead of the ability to perform miracles. Wisdom and love.
That is reality every preacher who wants to preach Christianity has to face.
No fish nets means no fish means less producers of fish, or Christian beliefs, over time.
In other words, we need to use both wisdom and love when we make decisions to be Christians. That is reality and choices we have to make in life since we have no miracle powers.
Regards and good will blogging.
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You stated — “Lander has a point, we should do as Jesus did. Problem is we cannot perform miracles with loaves and fishes as Jesus did.”
My response — This is a much better discussion because it is more honest than the discussion we were having. We are now having a real conversation about God and putting the blame or success where we believe the real power is.
So who has the power to save us from this border situation? You have already answered this in your reply.
You stated — “…there Is no miracle way other to pay than to sell your fish nets (land, businesses) to people who may not be as good and kind Christian followers and believers…”
My response — In your response God is absent and his power withdrawn and now you have to relay on your own means to solve the problem. So what is the solution a man would offer?
Send the children back regardless of needs for food or safety because it will cost to much to help them. Money over life.
Me personally I think if we do as Jesus would do we would benifit from his mercy. I think the children should be helped regardless of cost. Life above money. It is what I would want for myself if it were me on the other side as the child.
You stated “We have to know when to say enough is enough as King Solomon warned.
Proverbs 30:15 The leech has two daughters: Give and Give. There …”
You also went on to post several more verses from Proverbs 30. I was especialy observant of the fact that you posted them in a different order 15 before 14.
My response — Matthew 18:2-5: He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
When you say enough is enough do you mean you have had enough of welcoming Christ?
Jesus — “And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.”
It will take faith to trust God to do his part AFTER you do yours and welcome him in as he stated you can through a child in need.
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You seem to know every which way to be Christian except how to feed, pay,, clothe, and house the whole world of immigrants than all seek to imigrate to the USA to escape the lack of law and order in thier lands.
How about a solution that includes a lawful way to immigrate into the USA?”
Keep in mind when you preach that you must have substance in your message to include law and order.
Regards and good will blogging.
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You stated — “You seem to know every which way to be Christian except how to feed, pay,, clothe, and house the whole world of immigrants”
My response — God defined how to be a Christian not me so your statement is misleading. I am not responsible for what the Bible states and can not be judged on what you feel it is lacking.
Wouldn’t it be better if you just stated clearly that you believe that the Bible seems to know every which way to be Christian except how to feed, pay,, clothe, and house the whole world of immigrants?
Why put on my shoulders what God has said? Do you think I have the power to fix what you believe he is lacking?
You stated — “Keep in mind when you preach that you must have substance in your message to include law and order.”
My response — If I were to preach then the substance would be the word of God and the law and order would be your obedience to him.
Matthew 18:2-5: He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
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@scatterwisdom
You stated — “I do not see any choices of what I agree the government should pay for when it comes time to pay my taxes.”
My response — It would seem roads and street lights are working great for everyone and I’m curious why you don’t see that.
You stated — “Lander7 is making empty suit statements to my questions which means there is no substance in his statements”
My response — The only solution is to obey God. The value of God being a solution that has substance to you is not, in any way, my responsibility. If you believe in Christ, then do what he would do. If you find my solution to be empty and void of substance how would I be to blame? How would I be offended? I am not the author of the Bible nor am I the architect of creation.
If you are asking me as a human being, saying “Lander please tell me what you think the solution is and leave God out of it.” Then my answer to you is to do as the Atheist do: use as much force as possible against anything you fear because this world is all you have. Don’t think about the suffering of others when what you have is at risk regardless if they are children since they say people are just animals anyway. Feel no guilt because they say you have no one to answer to, they say there is no God to judge you.
The rub is that at the end of the day some Atheist are fighting to save those children. (strange world)
1 John 3:18
18 Little children, let us stop just saying we love people; let us really love them, and show it by our actions.
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You stated — Helping the people in other countries does not required us to open our borders to everyone who wants to come here… Yet that appears to be what you are arguing for, and it is silly.
My response — I have never argued with you, I simply showed you what scripture said. My only advice is that you obey God and do what Christ would do with children needing help. If you do not want to do that you have not offended me in anyway. It is not me that wants you to help them.
You stated — “charity is not a function of government”
My response — Government exists for any function the people want it to exist for. This is not to say that charity is good or bad but simply to state a truth. The people decide how they want the nation to be. I would ask a better question: Is a Christian nation one that gives charity or is it one that does not?
You stated — “So what should we do?”
My response — Stop leaning on your understanding and lean on God’s. Do what Christ would do.
Let me ask a few questions:
Who owns America the people or God?
Who prospers America the money makers or God?
Who owns the hungry children who cross the border, God or someone else?
Who do you answer to, God or someone else?
I don’t think I am against any choice you make or any answer you provide. I think you believe that I am preaching to you but what is really happening is that I have no invested interest in the outcome of your choices. You and me both have the same problem, we only answer to one person. In the end the only thing that matters is what that person thinks of what we do, think, and believe.
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@Lander7
The Bible does not relieve of us of the responsibility to think. God has made us the stewards of what we have from Him. Stewards thoughtfully use and maintain what they have in their care for their Master.
Government is a tool. Like any tool, its inventors designed it for a purpose. Trying to use the government to distribute charity is just about as silly as trying climb onto a broom and fly to work. That will work well only in your wildest imagination. Once you stop to THINK about it, the problems become obvious. Otherwise, you will be late for work.
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Tom, Lander7
I am mulling the thought that Christians have both religious and civic responsibilities. Lander7 only focuses on Christian responsibilities and offers no pragmatic solutions how to be both a good Christian and a good citizen.
Wisdom and love are two virtues. The truth of the current mass core reason for migration to the USA is people seeking an environment of safety from gangs in their countries. In other words, they seek law and order.
Christianity needs law and order tool. God gave us both minds and mouths to address what to do to instill law and order in the countries of our births.
Running from problems in one country to escape responsibility and sacrifices needed to restore law and order in their country needs to be considered by Christians.
Perhaps Lander7 can organize an army of Christian volunteers to wipe out the gangs in South America or the world. However, this was tried in earlier centuries in a failed Crusade.
Somewhere there is a solution other than just quoting verses in the Bible.
It is called action by those who want to care for millions of oppressed people in the world by addressing the problems which are driving immigrants to leave their countries, while ignoring the problems in our county.
For example, in Chicago, more people are being shot and killed by gangs fighting over drug territory.
Yet the USA spends billions to feed and clothe people who are flocking to find law and order, while at the same time, the USA law and order is failing their own citizens who need resources to live in an environment of law and order in the USA.
It is easier and more pragmatic for Christians to donate to charities to send food from the USA to people starving instead of the mess we have in the USA caused by the breakdown of law and order in the USA.
Regards and good will blogging..
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I missed one reply and didn’t want to seem like I was ignoring it so this response is late:
You stated — “I am mulling the thought that Christians have both religious and civic responsibilities. Lander7 only focuses on Christian responsibilities and offers no pragmatic solutions how to be both a good Christian and a good citizen.”
My response — I think we make our own responsibilities. We can do both or even just one or the other. We can choose what we want to do. I think about religious and civic responsibilities a lot. I think this is reflected in my service to the Navy, to the church, to local organizations and to myself and what I want.
You stated — Wisdom and love are two virtues. The truth of the current mass core reason for migration to the USA is people seeking an environment of safety from gangs in their countries. In other words, they seek law and order.
My response — I think your summation is too simple and doesn’t address the myriad number of reasons they came. For some it could also be a religious calling, others a desire to obtain fortune one day (be rich), etc.
You stated — Running from problems in one country to escape responsibility and sacrifices needed to restore law and order in their country needs to be considered by Christians.
My response — I agree. In fact, we should consider what God would have us do.
You stated — Somewhere there is a solution other than just quoting verses in the Bible.
My response — There are many solutions. I joined the Navy for 8 years, I think that is a real action that protected my country. We can most definitely take real action.
I think the question that forms what you see as concerns are can we rely on God to be a solution or do we need to fend for ourselves?
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@Citizen Tom
You stated — The Bible does not relieve of us of the responsibility to think. God has made us the stewards of what we have from Him.
My response — You speak of money and I speak of children in need.
What do you think God means to be stewards over?
Is what we have from God the children?
If you are a steward of money, who is your master?
You stated — “Trying to use the government to distribute charity is just about as silly as trying climb onto a broom and fly to work.”
My response — You don’t need to use the government to feed the children. God provides other solutions that feed children.
You have choices.
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How exactly is God feeding all the illegal immigrants other than through taxpayer fund?
You need substance when you preach a message that offers no practical solutions other than love and trust and God will provide.
How many may I ask are you clothing feeding and housing in your community and who is paying seems to me to be an honest question to determine if you are a mand of substance on the subject of illegal immigration.
Yes No?
Regards and good will blogging.
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You stated — “How exactly is God feeding all the illegal immigrants other than through taxpayer fund?”
My response — Are you asking how does God do something you can’t see him do? OR Are you asking how can we fix what God has failed to do?
I will need clarity on this question to answer it.
You stated — You need substance when you preach a message that offers no practical solutions other than love and trust and God will provide.
My response — It is impossible for me to preach to you since I am not a preacher. I also clearly offered two solutions so far.
Solution One: Trust God and do what he said to do and it will work out in the end. Also known as faith.
Solution Two: Trust in Money and keep out any child that has nothing to offer for the food we have to give. Also known as smart economics.
How can you not see the solutions?
You stated — “How many may I ask are you clothing feeding and housing in your community and who is paying seems to me to be an honest question to determine if you are a man of substance on the subject of illegal immigration.”
My response — This question is nonsensical since my answer has no bearing on the truth or a solution. I could lie and say anything and you can rebut anything I say. This type of question doesn’t move the conversation forward and it’s not an honest way for us to reach an understanding.
We are at a crossroads that has nothing to do with either of us so let’s not pretend it does.
Either we trust God or we don’t.
Either we put money above life or we don’t.
Either we take care of those children or we don’t.
Simple choices that only ask for people to make honest decisions.
Why not just say to me in a clear sure voice, “Lander the children have no money so they cannot buy our food, send them back and pray to your God to help them where they are because he can’t help them with our money here.”
Let me ask you this:
If a hungry child is on the border praying for food and a well fed man is on the other side praying to keep the child out for fear of loosing money are they praying to the same God?
Is the USA a Christian Nation?
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@Lander7
I enjoyed scatterwisdom’s response.
No. Not true. What you speak of is taking away other people’s money and spending it for them. If you had the faith you speak of, you would not propose stealing other people’s money and spending it for them.
The Bible has a fair amount to say both about money and charity. It says nothing about government. The Bible says something about charities run by the church and the temple, but it does not say anything about government-run charity.
Why not? Isn’t government the obvious solution? Since government can tax us by force, it can certain get the money it needs. However, when we don’t get a choice in the matter, that does not give us the opportunity to be the sort of joyful giver we are supposed to be. There is no faith involved, just the certainty the IRS will punish us if we don’t pay up. Does that sound Biblical to you? But would it not work anyway? No.
Morality makes a difference, because caring makes a difference. So let’s go back to basics? Why and when is it moral for government to tax us? Since politicians educate us, many people never even consider this question. I finally got around to it late in life. Here is my answer. Government taxes us to provide our leaders the resources they need to maintain law and order, to protect our rights. This is justified because the alternative is obvious. Without government we have chaos, and everyone’s rights would be in jeopardy.
Because government is such a threat to our rights, we should never give it more power than necessary. Government-run charity gives government way too much power. When we put government in charge of redistributing the wealth or charity, that creates at least two conflicts of interest.
1. Instead of just protecting our God-given rights, politicians now decide what rights we should have. They can use that power to buy other people’s votes at the expense of other people’s rights.
2. When we vote instead of voting for what is best for our country, we have the option of voting for those politicians who promise to give us the most of other people’s money. This is why we have such awful leadership.
Hence, I say government is the wrong tool to provide charity. Government does not love anyone. You and I and everyone else are supposed to do that.
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You stated — No. Not true. What you speak of is taking away other people’s money and spending it for them. If you had the faith you speak of, you would not propose stealing other people’s money and spending it for them.
My response — I haven’t spoke of anything, I did however post scripture. You are responding to what God has requested of you, not me. You keep referring to “Government” but the bible keeps referring to “You”.
I am not God but even I find it strange that when you see scripture from God asking you to do something your responses keep coming back to things like this , “Why and when is it moral for government to tax us?”.
Why not have the conversation without mentioning the government? Does God call you to help those children? Does God call you to welcome them?
Or why not leave God out of it and we can talk about economics? That would be an easier discussion because we can both agree that helping to feed children is not cost effective. From a business perspective they are a debit.
I had a friend at work that was a religious man in a church and local society that told me at lunch that all the handicapped children should be killed to make society stronger for the healthier ones.
He stated that handicapped children are to much of a burden on the government and he’s tiered of paying taxes to support them.
I respect him because he’s honest with me. I may disagree but he doesn’t hide what he believes.
My only question to him were things like is it fair that children go without food while less than 1% of the worlds population hold most of it’s wealth? Do you think that’s what God wants?
Let’s have an honest conversation and stop using the government as a scapegoat for hard questions.
What do “YOU” want to do with poor children who want to come to this country because they need food and shelter?
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@Lander7
The problem is not government. The problem is not thinking matters through. In addition to virtues such as faith, hope, and charity, the Bible has much to say about activity involving thought: meditation, knowledge, understanding and wisdom.
It is not enough just to quote Bible verses and say: “See, that says what you are supposed to do”. Maybe it is, and maybe it isn’t. That depends upon what you think what those Bible verses say about what you are supposed to do. It takes some effort to set aside our bias and read what God wrote instead of what we want to see.
There is also the problem of thoughtless ignorance. When we quote a verse or a passage out of context, we risk mangling the meaning. We can forget, for example, that the Bible was written for us, not to us. It may have made sense for Joshua and the Hebrews to march around a city to conquer it thousands of years ago, but that was then. Unless God sends us another prophet, I don’t suggest trying that battle strategy today.
As Christians, what are we called upon to do? Each of us has the right and the obligation to pray and study to figure that out. Some of us will dedicate ourselves to helping the poor, but that has nothing to do with securing our borders.
When people from other nations dump their children on us, we should take those children back to their home nations. When we encourage people to dump their kids on us, that just creates chaos. Because your proposal would encourage more people to dump their children on us, it just increases the chaos. It doesn’t solve any problems.
Feeding hungry people is a separate problem from securing our borders. Government has the problem of securing the borders without unnecessarily abusing people. Charitable organizations and individuals have taken upon themselves the task of helping the poor.
Is not helping the poor and needy a sin of omission? Yes, and that is a personal sin. Check the Bible. Governments don’t go to Hell. Unsaved sinners, individuals who refuse Jesus Christ, go to Hell.
“My only question to him were things like is it fair that children go without food while less than 1% of the worlds population hold most of it’s wealth? Do you think that’s what God wants?”
That is outside the scope of this discussion. However, when we try to use our government to do things it cannot do well, it is easier for some sneaky people to pervert the government so that they can acquire disproportionate power and wealth.
Have you ever heard of the KISS principle? To our own regret, we each violate it all the time.
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@Tom, Lander7
Frankly, I like Lander7 philosophy and I believe Tom you are right that Lander should run for office as a politician. If you do Lander7, let me know and I will vote for you.
I like his statement that government should not have use taxpayer money to feed, clothe, and house every illegal immigrant who wants to cross our borders illegally.
I like his statement that Christians or men of good will who believe in feeding the poor according to the Bible teachings will all voluntary do so rather than the government.
I believe his philosophy will end illegal immigration problem in a shorter time than the USA politicians have been trying to do for 35 years.
Why and How?
Feed them and they will come. When reality sets in that there will not be enough charitable contributors, perhaps they will stop coming.
Let them work for slave labor wages and when those jobs are no longer available, perhaps the will stop coming.
Yes. I like Lander7 philosophy, because in time the problem will go away by itself because of reality. In the meantime, since there are approximately 400 million guns in the USA at present. I believe for a while there will be a lot of gunfire taking place.
It was that way when the original settlers migrated into the USA and things seemed to work out even though a lot of people died.
Whether they went to heaven or not, Lander7 has an answer for that too. God will judge them.
I still have my police pistol and am trained how to protect myself and my community. If someone who invades my home, I am ready for both the home invader and God’s judgement.
Regards and good will blogging.
PS Do not take this reply seriously, same as Lander7 does when he makes statements that bear no substance of reality.
Yes he will make a good empty suit politician on this issue, in my opinion.
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🤔😏😉
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I wasn’t aware of the KISS Principal. That is probably the best explanation why our immigration system is so screwed up.
It reminded me of my son who lived for a while in Austria without a visa. I asked him what happens to troublemakers in Austria if they do something wrong and do not have a valid visa.
He said the police rough them up up a bit and then drive him to the border and release them.
Said they had very few criminals there.
True story.
Regards and good will blogging.n
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When I was in the military, I found people liked to use this phrase. Usually, superiors suggested the KISS principle in the context of briefing. However, the KISS principle has an obvious application in war-planning.
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You stated — “It is not enough just to quote Bible verses and say: “See, that says what you are supposed to do”. Maybe it is, and maybe it isn’t. That depends upon what you think what those Bible verses say about what you are supposed to do.”
My response — This is a great statement! Let’s see what we believe and share it with each other about the only thing that really matters (God). I will provide a verse and event. You tell me what you think the verse means and tell me what should be done for the event. I want your words and what you would do, none of that government stuff, just you.
Verse: What does this mean to “YOU”.
James 1:27 The Christian who is pure and without fault, from God the Father’s point of view, is the one who takes care of orphans and widows, and who remains true to the Lord–not soiled and dirtied by his contacts with the world.
Event: Your choice for the solution.
A child with a handicap that has no parents and is living as a ward of the state in a town that does not have a charity or church that can afford the medical support needed. Should the state continue to supply medical needs for the child or end medication to save taxpayer money even though the child would die?
You stated — “Because your proposal would encourage more people to dump their children on us, it just increases the chaos. It doesn’t solve any problems.”
My response — I have answered this before stating it is not my request but Gods, since it is his word not mine but you repeatedly respond with statements like my “proposal”
Can you post what my proposal was so I can see it?
Q — Have you ever heard of the KISS principle?
A — Yes I have.
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Lander7,”
My accolades to your faith. You are perhaps close to sainthood in my opinion.
May I suggest kindly, you now focus on Wisdom, both Spiritual and Practical to help your understand of the reality that not everyone in the USA is a saint like you. Somehow you have to communicate to them how to solve the practical problems they have in life.
Remember the Monks used to band together to work and pray. Might be a good experience for you to better understand the motto of my blog.
to understand the meaning of the motto of this blog.
What the world needs now in addition to love is wisdom.
Regards and good will blogging.
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I don’t want you to think that I don’t understand what you are saying but do you not believe that Christ is practical solution to all problems? Is he not the very wisdom you asked me to look for?
1 Corinthians 1:30
30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
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@Lander7
Your inquisitive and altruism have a price. Your comments remind me about a genius and his quest for altruism, absent from the realities of life. I recommend you read it and I will pray you will understand the message, there is a price for everything in this world, nothing is free.
The article you mentioned is a personal opinion of an economist with the same background of the economists that brought about 10 trillion dollars in USA trade deficits.
In other words his opinion is a failed economic theory which millions of people who were studied Economics were taught in College and cannot seem to grasp that the theory turned out to be a bad deal for the USA economy.
Regards and good will blogging.
PS Do some reading to obtain understanding on the subjects of trade balances, negotiations and altruism. Your innocence’s and nativity needs a dose of reality, in my opinion.
If after reading, you h
ave questions, I will be happy to share my opinions, some which I admit are human or fallible, wise or foolish, or whatever you decide..
In other word, it is time for us to separate from these three subjects in accordance to a king Solomon proverb of advice.
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You stated — “Your inquisitive and altruism have a price.”
My response — Clearly I haven’t mentioned anything about myself in our conversation. Any reference to me being altruistic would be nonsensical. My only guess is that you perceive the verses I post of Jesus as being altruistic in nature or Jesus himself being altruistic. I’m not sure this is true, I see him more as concerned for his children rather than simply for people in general. The nuance could be very important when trying to understand what is driving his words.
You stated — “there is a price for everything in this world, nothing is free.’
My response — I think we can get past this part of the conversation since it is not allowing us to move forward. I agree with you that nothing in life is free(Jesus paid the price). I think you would like an article I published that addresses free healthcare (I know Tom would like it). I haven’t found any fault with your views on how to address these tough topics. I am asking what would Jesus do and what does scripture tell us? Are we following God or are we following something else? Let’s focus on where we disagree rather than where we agree since there is no argument there.
https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/02/20/399-black-men-tortured-by-7-us-surgeon-generals-for-40-years-without-rest-within-the-us-and-backed-by-the-cdc/
You stated — “The article you mentioned is a personal opinion of an economist with the same background of the economists that brought about 10 trillion dollars in USA trade deficits.”
My response — What article did I mention? Did I provide a link?
You stated — “PS Do some reading to obtain understanding on the subjects of trade balances, negotiations and altruism. Your innocence’s and nativity needs a dose of reality, in my opinion.
In other word, it is time for us to separate from these three subjects in accordance to a king Solomon proverb of advice.
My response — It was a good conversation, I fully accept your ending it and look forward to other opportunities to discuss hard topics of faith and man in the future.
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@Lander7
Let’s go back to the subject of the post. Does Jesus require us to let illegal aliens into our country and feed, cloth, and shelter them? Can you show me where the Bible says we have to do that? You can show me where the Bible says we should help the poor and needy. Nobody is arguing otherwise, but I think it is safe to say Jesus expected a strong man to keep and protect his home and his family. Ask Job how it felt when he was unable to do that.
Before we help strangers, we keep and protect our own. It is irresponsible to do otherwise. When the two become one, we create a family. We are bound by heart and oath to keep and protect our families.
We have viable alternatives. We can set an example. We can strive to show other nations how to govern their own lands by governing our land own properly. As individuals, we can support charitable organizations devoted to helping the poor. Logic suggests these are better alternatives than open borders. Logic also suggests giving our government the power to distribute charity has corrupted our rulers and the poor. If we accept millions of poor and uneducated foreigners, we will be unable to keep and protect our own.
To obey our Lord, do we have to commit cultural suicide? Do we have to fill our nation with strangers who do not know us and cannot speak our language? Don’t you understand why the Tower of Babel was a curse? Don’t you understand why the people under that curse had to flee from each other? It doesn’t appear that you do. Otherwise, not only would you know the KISS principle, you would apply the KISS principle.
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I don’t mind ignoring my questions if they are going off main topic, that’s fair.
Let me answer your questions thoughtfully and fully.
Q — Does Jesus require us to let illegal aliens into our country and feed, cloth, and shelter them?
A — Jesus does not require anyone to do anything.
21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Q — Can you show me where the Bible says we have to do that?
A — I can’t show you or anyone else any verse in the Bible that states you have to do anything.
Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then
choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…..
You stated — “You can show me where the Bible says we should help the poor and needy. Nobody is arguing otherwise, but I think it is safe to say Jesus expected a strong man to keep and protect his home and his family.”Ask Job how it felt when he was unable to do that.
My response — I don’t understand the reference: Are you saying that Job did the wrong thing when he trusted God? OR That God failed Job’s family? OR That Job was regretful? OR Something else? I need more clarity on this statement.
You stated — “Logic suggests these are better alternatives than open borders.”
My response — There are many options and we covered several of them so I don’t think going over them again will advance the conversation. I will say that Logic is not the same as Faith so you may be at a crossroad of relying on your own understanding with the opportunity to rely on Gods understanding.
I would also like to reiterate that I have never once while we have talked stated that any of your solutions were bad solutions. Again I am only asking what would Jesus do given what scripture says. You have no argument with me and we are not in disagreement. If you think the word is lacking then I can not be to blame for that since I did not write it.
If the laws change one day to make your family even more secure and more prosperous with a mark so that you will be safely identified apart from outsiders will you also follow that system and take the mark?
Q — To obey our Lord, do we have to commit cultural suicide?
A — To obey the Lord is to obtain the culture God wants, I have no idea if he wants to destroy your current culture.
Q — Do we have to fill our nation with strangers who do not know us and cannot speak our language?
Q — Don’t you understand why the Tower of Babel was a curse?
Q — Don’t you understand why the people under that curse had to flee from each other?
A — You choose to answer this for me with, “It doesn’t appear that you do. Otherwise, not only would you know the KISS principle, you would apply the KISS principle.”
I will Add this to your answer for me — You do not have to do anything. You can choose to do anything you want. If you want to leave God out of it then I would say this is a nation of strangers built by people who once did not understand each others languages and it has made us the most powerful country on Earth.
If we are going to be fair Tom I do believe I have stated numerous times that your solutions are fair economically and I will also stipulate that your life will most likely be better for you and your family. I would like to put this part of the debate to rest since we are not in disagreement on law, strength, and economics. I myself spent 8 years in the Navy protecting my country for strangers so I understand the argument.
If that is all that matters then the argument I think is nonsensical since we agree.
If you want to acknowledge God and what he wants us to do with the children then we have a discussion that can continue past solutions that benefit us since helping those in need has no earthly reward. In fact helping those in need has a cost association.
If we move forward let’s discus what being obedient to God looks like in helping those children.
I would like an answer to the Mark question if you feel it can or should be answered.
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@Lander7
“If we move forward let’s discuss what being obedient to God looks like in helping those children.”
With respect to all the children being dumped on our border, I have already quite clearly described what I think being obedient to God looks like. Have you? If not, why not?
You are still doing the same thing. With phrases such as “I have no idea what God wants” or “you do not have to do anything”, you set aside every objection suggested by commonsense. Then you talk about the possibility I might accept the mark of the beast?
Obedience to God is not quoting Bible verses and spouting the word “FAITH” as if that explains everything. The Apostle Paul did not do that. In what he wrote he went to great efforts to explain Christian theology as logically as He could.
Do we have to open our borders because Lander7 thinks FAITH requires us to open the borders? Isn’t this about what God requires? Does God expect us to think, to acquire knowledge, to increase in our understanding, and to exercise wisdom as He defines wisdom? Then absent a divine revelation that is what we must do.
The Bible is a long book because it has much to teach us. Consider the meaning of faith.
“Hebrews 11:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”
Note the word evidence. Faith is not without evidence, but it does require us to trust God. Every time we do something, like cross the street, we exercise faith. We assess the risk, decide where to place our trust, and then we act.
When we help the poor and needy, why if faith required? We have to have faith that God is love. The natural man has no such faith. His focus is on himself, not others. The natural man is not trying to obey God.
Would opening our borders and using our government to help those trying to steal across our border be an act of faith? Yes, but it would faith without any evidence God wants us to help these people that way. Where is the evidence God wants us to help the poor and needy in the most stupid way possible? Except in a dire emergency, it is not even ethical to use our government to distribute charity. God gave us brains. Doesn’t He expect us to use them?
Let me explain two passages for you.
Why the reference to Job? In Job 1:13-22, God allow Satan to destroy Job’s children and wealth. God left Job with nothing except his faith that God is good. As Satan observes in Job 1:10, God had protected Job, but for it to any good, Job had to make use of God’s protection. Job had to be a strong man who protected his family, his home, and his possessions.
Because God had protected Him, Job accumulated wealth and put it to good use. Then disaster struck. God had a lesson for Job, a lesson recorded for our sake.
Here is what John Wesley says about Job 1:12 in his “Notes On The Bible.”
The Verse => Job 1:12
“Job 1:12 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.”
Wesley’s Notes on => Job 1:12
“Behold, &c. – It seems strange, that, God should give Satan such a permission as this. But he did it for his own glory, for the honour of Job, for the explanation of providence, and the encouragement of his afflicted people in all ages.”
Eventually, as the Book of Job records, God restored His protection and Job’s prosperity. In addition, God gave Job a new family. Given Job is held up to us as an example of faith, is there something wrong with imitating him?
What about Mark 10:17-22?
“Mark 10:17-22 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.”
Why did Jesus counsel the rich young ruler to sell all his earthly goods, give everything he had to the poor, and follow Him? Consider how the passage ends: “for he had great possessions.” Because he had put his possessions before God — because he idolized money — his soul was at risk. So Jesus gave that rich young ruler advice specific to him.
The same story is told in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. They all end essentially the same way. Each observes that the rich young ruler was torn between doing what was necessary to inherit eternal life and retaining a grasp upon his possessions.
In the passage that follows the story about the rich young ruler (in Matthew, Mark and Luke), Jesus explains the problem of trusting in riches. That passage helps us to understand the passage before it, the one about the rich young ruler.
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You stated — “If we move forward let’s discuss what being obedient to God looks like in helping those children.”
My response — Let’s start with something easy like keeping children out of cages while we detain them. As the bible says treat others as we would be treated. Let us treat the children as we would treat Jesus.
You stated — “With respect to all the children being dumped on our border”
My response — We could also stop referring to the situation of helpless children as being dumped when we know for a fact that God loves them and they have value. As Christians we can change the tone of the conversation and bring compassion to the table.
You stated — “I have already quite clearly described what I think being obedient to God looks like. Have you?
My response — I have and we have the posts to prove it.
You stated — “God gave us brains. Doesn’t He expect us to use them?”
My response — He also gave us hearts so we should use them in combination with our brains.
If you want a solution then I would say we need to first change the conversation to reflect the love of God for those in need. It doesn’t cost any money to change the conversation and you don’t have to fear opening the border and loosing your tax money or way of life.
Just change the heart of the conversation. Everything you do adds a voice to what is done to those children and what God hears. Let it be words of compassion.
If the conversation can change then positive action can be taken. We have a multitude of services and people around the states that can help but right now a vast majority of those resources are locked in verbal battle and it’s not a positive conversation that reflects the love of God.
The first action is with the tongue.
Proverbs 18:21
21 The tongue has the power of life and death,
and those who love it will eat its fruit.
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@Lander7
🙄
Now it is the tone of conversation. Anything except the actual subject.
I have proposed a policy solution. You have yet to show anything that is wrong with it. With very little explanation, you have just quoted passages from the Bible, suggesting that means we should have open borders. Not true!
“James 3:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”
Before we teach, we need to do our homework.
One of the things Liberal Democrats like to do is quote the Bible and then claim Jesus supports their policy proposals. Since I have a blog that deals with both politics and religion, that means I occasionally have to explain why Liberal Democrats should not quote the Bible if they don’t believe it. Invariably, they get it wrong.
What especially disappoints me, however, is when someone who believes the Bible doesn’t know enough to avoid using the Bible to browbeat other Christians into adopting a particular policy solution. As Apostle Paul pointed out, when the Bible doesn’t take a clear position, we should not fight over it. If some Christians want to go to church on Saturday and others on Sunday, who cares? The main thing is that we spent some time sharing our fellowship in Jesus Christ.
You want to open borders? I say no. Help these people BEFORE they plant themselves on our doorstep. Send those who do home. Why is that a Biblical issue? You have yet to explain. You don’t like the tone? Bad optics too, I suppose. But do you really have a better, more practical, solution? You have faith, but no evidence of it. All you do is quote Bible verses and talk around the problem.
Since our Constitution does not authorize Congress to redistribute our wealth, there is also an ethical problem you have yet to address. However, here is the main problem. The Bible is not a book about border management. So what is the point in trying to make it into one?
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You stated — “you have just quoted passages from the Bible, suggesting that means we should have open borders. Not true!”
My response — I challenge you to show me where I stated what to do with the border.
You stated — “Why is that a Biblical issue? ”
My response — Everything is a Biblical issue and nothing we do can be done without God.
The word of God is the solution to all problems. All of my responses on my side of the conversation will include the word of God because it is the only true way to a solution.
You keep blaming the government for problems that can be solved by faith, my question is why?
Why not seek a solution within the word of God?
Why not trust in Christ?
I gave you two small changes that don’t violate the border but show the love of Christ and you completely ignored them. Why?
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What two small changes?
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I’m starting to think that some of the confusion in our conversation about what I am saying is due to some of my responses being ignored.
Let’s just look at one small change I suggested earlier.
Let’s start with something easy like keeping children out of cages while we detain them. As the bible says to treat others as we would be treated. Let us treat the children as we would treat Jesus.
Clearly this does not violate border laws and shows compassion. Is this for you acceptable?
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@Lander7
Bullshit! A jail is a cage. When we lock up their parents and we don’t separate the children, we put the children in jail too.
When border agents take custody of children, what are they suppose to do with them? It is fine to talk about form, but substance matters. Most of these “children” are teens and some are gang members. Until we send them home, they need to be locked up.
Anyway, this is not going anywhere. So I am not going to try to condense everything into comment. I do have a post in mind, however. So I will ping you when it is up.
The Bible is the story of our redemption by Jesus Christ. It covers a lot of ground, but it also talks about discernment. There is no book that that relieves us of the responsibility to think. Faith requires us think. Otherwise, how do we decide what or who we should trust?
Our immigration system does not work because our leaders don’t want it to work. For example, when people come up through Mexico from Central America, if it is asylum they want, they should be seeking asylum in Mexico, not the United States. So we should insist that they do. We don’t. Otherwise, Mexico would not be granting illegal immigrants from Central America passage.
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Tom, Lander7,
There are two reasons why the children were caged. The first is to protect them from the bad guys who may want to harm or could cause them harm. The second is if a caged person, or person is in jail in the USA, their jailers have a duty to protect them and if negligent, can be civilly sued by the caged person according to the laws in the USA.
When you make suggestions, or implications, you need to keep in mind there are common sense reasons as well as lawful reasons.
Lander7, again, many are moving to the USA to seek law and order missing from their countries.
Again, when you make suggestions that imply the USA is cruel or inhumane for caging children, whether they are with their parents or not, they choose to come here and bear the risks, many of which they endure from the bad guys they encounter along the way to seek safety in a land of law and order.
They make the choices. Consider this proverb about how people wind up “landing” in places as a result of their choice.
As a sparrow on the wing and a swallow in flight, so is an unmerited curse, which does not alight. (Proverb 26:2)
If interested, check out this link about results of choices or curses in life we encounter when we make choices.
https://rudymartinka.com/2018/06/27/king-solomon-anthropogenic-hazards-choices-or-curses/
Regards and good will blogging..
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You stated — “Bullshit! A jail is a cage. When we lock up their parents and we don’t separate the children, we put the children in jail too.”
My response — We are a nation of laws. Jail is for criminals. What crime did the children commit?
You stated — For example, when people come up through Mexico from Central America, if it is asylum they want, they should be seeking asylum in Mexico, not the United States.
My response — We are a nation of laws. Do we have laws for asylum seekers in the United States?
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Just google Wikipedia about asylum laws. Keep in mind that cunning human minds know how to circumvent any laws made by man.
That is why our present immigration system needs to be changed. Latest estimates are that there are 12 million cunning minds that ignored our immigration laws now living in the USA.
Old idiom is if it aint broke, dont try to fix it.
We have 23 million broken faucets now in the USA, perhaps it is time to fix em, perhaps?
Regards and good will blogging.
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@scatterwisdom
Let’s avoid nonsensical arguments. You already know I was in the Navy for 8 years from past conversations, so I fully support strength and protection of the US. Let’s put that on the table so we don’t keep repeating the same statements.
Let’s also agree that current policies and government systems are both broken and needing change so we don’t have to keep repeating that in conversation. Let’s put this on the table.
Let’s move on to something more constructive. Let’s wait for Tom’s solution, then mine and then yours and have a hard conversation from a clear view and see where it leads.
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@Lander7
You want open borders? So long as we have a welfare state, that won’t work. The rest of the world is too impoverished.
We are a nation of laws. We have borders, and we have laws about crossing those borders. Because some of our leaders are unscrupulous, they have deliberately passed defective laws. Take it up with them.
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Q — You want open borders?
A — No.
But I do want you to answer my quests that you have ignored to ask me this one.
Let’s hold the conversation until we see your solution so we have a more constructive discussion.
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https://citizentom.com/2018/06/28/he-is-quoting-scripture-at-me-now-what-do-i-do-part-3/
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Lander7
“Lets hold the conversation?”
Why, Tom gave you his answer. Open borders won’t work in a welfare state.
It is, and always has been our leader’s responsibility to protect our borders, for the last 35 years since Reagan granted the last amnesty. He said it would be the last amnesty and promised a law would prevent any undocumented immigrant would be hired to end the problem. E verify was supposedly the answer, yet politicians evaded this fix as if it is a plague.
How long are you going to hold the conversation, or in other words, do the same thing politicians have done, another 35 years?
Just saying do as Jesus would do has been answered. He “turned the tables” over to drive out the people who profited in his “house” when he got frustrated and was crucified as a result. Same as the news media is crucifying President Trump for trying to end the 35 year old stance of empty suit politicians who have no substance other than to sit on the fence and allow millions more illegal immigrants into the USA.
Appears I pegged you correctly when I suggested you should be a politician.
Your” Lets hold the conversation” and crucify President Trump for his suggestions how to solve the 35 year old problem is what the liberal Democrats do.
“Crucify him, crucify him,” was the Pharisees cry when he turned over the tables.
Yes, the Democrats are indeed the party of empty suit politicians when they criticize and never come up with a solution other than open borders. In other words, words with no substance or suggestions how to solve the problem, using words,” do as Jesus would do. ”
Nice blogging with you. Hope you have a good life preaching words with no substance just like politicians have done on this issue for 35 years.
Regards and good will blogging..
PS Doug, if you are reading this comment, I’m still waiting for your fix you promised to provide many months ago. Doug admits to being a Trump hater for anyone interested .
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You stated — “The Bible is not a book about border management. So what is the point in trying to make it into one?”
My response — What is the Bible a book about?
I am also not sure what your solution is to the border. Could you post it so I can fully review it? Maybe we just need to see the full extent of your wisdom to understand what you are saying better.
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How about you submit your solution so I can see the full extent of your wisdom, other than to make implications or instill a guilt complex
on people who are or may be effected by the breakdown of law and order in our broken immigration system.
Frankly, you somehow remind me of the ancient Pharisees in the Bible who missed the message of Jesus Christ and crucified the wrong guy.
Regards and good will blogging.
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Show me where I said he should feel guilty about wanting to protect his country?
I think we should all show our solutions so the conversation can advance forward without guilt and with clarity. Right now we may be having misunderstandings due to lack of clear communication. Since I requested first I will let Tom post his, and them me and then you if you.
This seems fair.
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Tom,
I believe both of us would be more amenable to Lander7 message to treat illegal immigrants ” as Jesus would,” if it was not an issue which has been perpetuating for 35 years.
At first it was men only looking for work. Now it is wicked men, using their children as pawns to manipulate the naive hearts of Christians and men of good will by sending their children in hopes that later on the will be DACA amnesty recipients who will petition their parents and relatives to enter the USA.
In other words, the USA people are acting in the same manner of frustration that Christ had when he overturned all the tables in the Temple of people profiting, or taking advantage of people;s good will beliefs in God.
Remember King Solomon’s proverb about the leech has two suckers, give, give.
Time to start overturning tables, after 35 years is warranted in my opinion.
Regards and good will blogging.
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